Stamitalks Podcast
We at Stamicarbon are pioneers in the licensing and design of fertilizer technology with more than 77 years of experience.
Here we share the latest technology insights into urea, green ammonia, fertilizer sustainability, and digital trends for fertilizer plants, and we also discuss the role the fertilizer industry can play in solving global challenges.
Happy to share our knowledge with you.
Stamitalks Podcast
Decoding the Ammonia Rainbow: From Feed to Food
Deepak Shetty explores the evolving ammonia landscape, from traditional methods to sustainable technologies. With nearly two decades of experience, he explains the different ammonia "colors" (green, blue, pink, white) and their carbon intensities.
Explore ammonia's expanding applications beyond fertilizers, including its use as a shipping fuel and energy carrier. This episode offers insights into sustainable chemical production and the circular economy.
Stammy Talks. Alright, welcome everybody to a new episode of Stammy Talks. My name is Mark Schleisser and today we are going to talk about the ammonia value chain from feed to food with our guest, deepak Shetty. Deepak, welcome. Thanks, mark.
Speaker 2:How are you doing? Great, the topic is very close to me. You know well how things are evolving in the ammonia world. The whole world is talking about ammonia, different colors, so it cannot be more exciting, okay.
Speaker 1:So because maybe as an introduction, your background really is in ammonia You've worked for several ammonia licencers Can you share a bit about your expertise, your education, to start off with, maybe?
Speaker 2:I'm a chemical engineer by background. Also, I'm a master's in business administration. I did it in Berlin long back in 2010. Almost 20 years now in the industry, ranging between syngas going all the way downstream, fertilizers, different grades, ammonium nitrate, tucan, work with different licenses, uda, kbr, and now, of course, looking at the green ammonia not only the green, but also the different colors of ammonia now in STAMI, but also the whole integration we are now talking about. So that's a good way to really put the perspective.
Speaker 1:Yeah, interesting topic to cover. So we'll get into that, because I think the purpose of this podcast Anita is to share, let's say, the overview of the ammonia landscape, and actually I usually don't bring a family into the podcast, but I was talking to my mother, who is very interested in, of course, what do you do, what does Stamina Carbon do? But she has a hard time understanding the whole thing. What's going on? What are different technologies? What are all those colors?
Speaker 2:Same goes with my daughter. She's quite keen to understand what ammonia is.
Speaker 1:So let's make a, a a explainer yeah so maybe to start off, uh, with a with the colors, because you mentioned your daughter, my daughter also likes to to color, but a different, different type of coloring. There's green ammonia, there's blue ammonia, there's gray, there's purple, there's all kinds of colors. Pink, pink indeed. Can you give some flavor to? What do all those colors mean? And is it a thing still, or what's the context?
Speaker 2:here, I think first thing. First, ammonia is ammonia. I think the end product looks the same. It only differs from the way the front end, which is the way ammonia on the front side, which is hydrogen, is derived. So let's put it in different colors there. So, if you have the very traditional way of making ammonia, which is the SMR-based gray scheme, which is gas in SMR, where you get the hydrogen syngas, then you go to ammonia. That's the traditional gray which derived goes.
Speaker 2:Almost 90% of that goes to the fertilizer downstream. Now, when you talk about the energy transition since the early 2019, 2020, we talk about different colors. You must have heard about blue, you must have heard about turquoise, you must have heard about pink as well. So the blue is where we talk about reduction of the carbon and that's the main target of the energy transition. So here we talk about almost reduction of almost 95 to 99 percent of the carbon.
Speaker 2:It comes with its own carbon CCS scheme, carbon capture, yes, carbon capture, and the blue scheme is almost similar to the gray, but the carbon is captured. But there are different ways of doing it. You had the traditional SMR, which always Steam methane, reforming, reforming, which did the whole front end, but here, to really capture the amount of CO2 we're talking about, we can also talk about ATR, which is the autothermal reforming, and we as STAMI, we offer the complete ATR, which is the autothermal reforming, and we, as STAMI, we offer the complete ATR as well with our group, a sister company called Gas Contact, and this can reduce to a stream of almost 99% CO2 in the CCS. And the third flavor, which I said also, is a pink ammonia, which is quite interesting. If the feedstock is more a nuclear-based power, which is going into the first stage, then you can call it as more pink, but these were more the colors on the initial stat. Then you have the new green ammonia, which is purely driving through the solar wind or the geothermal assets.
Speaker 1:So it's not based on fossil fuels.
Speaker 2:Not on fossil fuel, which is only the electrolysis or the geothermal acids. So it's not based on fossil fuel. Not on fossil fuel, which is only the electrolysis which generates the hydrogen, then the ASU which drops the nitrogen.
Speaker 1:Air separation unit. Yes, you combine together to make ammonia.
Speaker 2:So these are the different colors.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I think there's also still white, which is, I think, natural-sourced mined hydrogen, right.
Speaker 2:This is also one topic which is coming up a lot these days, where you know the naturally present hydrogen. We talked about some assets here in France as well, where they're looking at naturally produced hydrogen, so this could be the white hydrogen, and some people also call it as gold, which is naturally derived.
Speaker 1:So then there are all kinds of colors, All but the gray have some form of carbon reduction. So isn't it more practical to just talk about a low carbon or a level of carbon reduction, capture or fire green energy? Is this because I think people are going crazy about different type of colors and combinations?
Speaker 2:You're right. I think the industry is moving towards that. I think in early 2020, people started talking different colors. I mean, one reason was there were intensity of carbon related to every color. Now I think it's more generically being said as low carbon. The traditional ammonia, which is gray, almost contained around 1.5 ton per ton of ammonia. That's the traditional equation you'd call it. But as you go along, the green has almost nil carbon, but the blue can always range between 95% recovery. So there are different levels. I think the industry is slowly moving towards a low carbon arena, not really colors.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's, I think, good to have that, let's say, as a foundation for the rest of our discussion. Then you also already mentioned briefly that whatever comes out is the. The molecule is the same. Ammonia as ammonia. Yes, to make ammonia you need hydrogen. Yes, and for hydrogen you have those different technologies. You already mentioned the outdoor thermal reformer and the steam methane reformer. Is that, are those the two main flavors? Can you explain a bit more on, let's say, the, the feed?
Speaker 1:for the ammonia and the feedstock. What's the difference between those technologies? What are innovations in the hydrogen part?
Speaker 2:I think if you look at the blocks, the feedstock, if you start with the traditional natural gas, the first block, if you're looking at a completely gray scheme, you have a steam methane reforming, which is the first block, which goes, produces a syngas, then you have the synloop as a block. This is a combination for a traditional SMR. The other one, which I talked about briefly, was the autothermal reforming where again, the block of natural gas being pre-treated and going into auto thermal reforming is almost a similar scheme, but it has levels of pressure.
Speaker 2:So here I think one of the major advantages that STAMI has is we have a high pressure ATR which is coupled with one of our sister group and then, depending on that, we have a very seamless integration with the SYNLOOP downstream. The third flavor which we have a very seamless integration with the Synloop downstream, the third flavor which we have been profoundly pushing into the market is also a catalytic partial oxidation scheme which is more driving the small-scale gas-based low-carbon ammonia which we are also coupling very seamlessly with our downstream units like urea. You can talk about DEF nitrates. So this is a third scheme which we are also kind of looking at modular, small-scale gas-based ammonia. Traditionally these three flavors when it comes to the hydrogen preparation and then when we talk about green, it's purely the electrolyzer base and here I think the seamless integration between the pressures of different electrolyzers, what hydrogen you get at what pressure, and then we seamlessly integrate also with the ammonia downstream.
Speaker 1:Just to recap this a bit. So we've got the you mentioned for the CPO technology, that small scale, it's low carbon. But then what's the? You say the autothermal reformer and the steam methane reformer is very similar technology. But then, of course, what's the difference? Is the difference in pressure, Is the difference in capacity, or why would you choose one?
Speaker 2:over the other. It's two factors One is the size and second is the carbon intensity. Now, if a client has a clear target to produce a very low-carbon ammonia based on gas as a feedstock and if the capacities are big, we are looking at world-scale 3,000, 3,500 metric tons. Atr is a fit there. I mean, we then talk about the integration which produces ammonia at a very low levelized cost of ammonia, which is the target for most of the developers. Now if you talk about small scales, where the gas is limited, the feedstock and the end products are more diversified downstream, you're not looking at only a small amount of ammonia. Then the CPO has its own sweet spot in terms of what price of ammonia you can come to at that. But also one of the major factors of CPO is at that capacity. You also have a big amount of optimized OPEX, which is one of the major drivers for majority of the clients as well.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's. The differentiator between those three, excluding renewable energy for now, is indeed size. Yes, so you say ATR is really world skills, 3,500 per day. Then SMR is still big 2,000., 2,000. And then CPO. What's the sweet spot that you mentioned? What's the range.
Speaker 2:Presently, more and more projects we have seen seen we restrict cpu to around less than 500 metric tons okay, okay, and then um.
Speaker 1:Option four, the renewable energy-based electrolyzers. Does that have a capacity limit or preferred range to operate in it's?
Speaker 2:a good point because we see globally it's all driven by how much amount of renewable asset you have.
Speaker 2:I mean if it is a typical 200, 100 megawatt. You talk about small-scale ammonia, which is below 500 metric tons, but we also see, in regions where there is a lot of sun, a lot of wind, you talk about small-scale ammonia, which is below 500 metric tons, but we also see in regions where there is a lot of sun, a lot of wind, we also see 1,000 megawatt, which is also driving world-scale plants like 2,000, 2,500. We have seen both these cases and I think we here in STAMI we have flavors for both A small modular scale where we push our own ammonia scheme and also for the bigger scale.
Speaker 2:So for both the schemes we have our own schemes and concepts for ammonia, which is well proven.
Speaker 1:Just a small side step, then, because you say, well, this electrolyzer, the renewable resource, is a key differentiating factor, which, of course, is a different feed than natural gas, but also, I think, globally, the regions where there's a lot of natural gas will be different than regions that have a lot of renewable resources, correct? So do you see already a shift in the marketplace and a, let's say, trade routes changing, or is it too soon for that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it is happening, it's already happening. If you look at Middle East today, I mean it's mainly the guzzlers in oil. They have all the oil, all the gas, to produce world-scale plants. But we also see in these regions they're also pressing hard because it's very highly renewable assets, like sun, for that matter. So look at the project in Saudi, for that matter, they are, of course, driving big plans on gas but also looking at renewable scales, ammonia I mean hydrogen and ammonia as well, so it's a good mix.
Speaker 2:We also see in the Far East, which is places like Southeast Asia, india, indonesia. You are also leveraging on assets like geothermal assets, like solar-wind mix, but also hydro. So these are also good examples where you can have at one place 500,000, 600,000 megawatt and you can drive an equivalent hydrogen-ammonia plant at the same location.
Speaker 1:Okay, so depending on the location, it gives a feedstock input.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And let's assume for this discussion that you would want to get to a product that ends up at a consumer somewhere. So ammonia in the end could be used as fuel for shipping, can be used as fertilizer. So we move from the natural gas or the renewable to hydrogen, then from hydrogen we go to ammonia and then from ammonia we'll get to several other uses. So the ammonia part. If you sometimes explain this as multiple chemical factories, the output for the first factory is the input for the second, so you have a whole chemical complex. If you want to do this, what's the? The impact of the ammonia versus the hydrogen Is this are they equal in size both in CAPEX and OPEX, or is there a major difference? Also, in footprint, the square meters or square foot that you use on the ground, is that similar or If you presently look at the overall picture, if you just stop at ammonia.
Speaker 2:I mean let's take that as an example first. The hydrogen drives, both in terms of CAPEX and also in the OPEX overall picture, if you just stop at ammonia. I mean let's take that as an example first.
Speaker 2:The hydrogen drives, both in terms of CAPEX and also in the OPEX, and the footprint as well. For example, if you look at a typical 1,000 megawatt plant, which is quite big I mean, in today's world we are talking about 1,000 megawatt For a hydrogen electrolyzer we are talking about one full football field. It's such a big size, but the ammonia could be very small. Even 1,000 megawatt driving a 2,200 plant, it's just a small footprint as compared to the hydrogen. So, both in terms of the CAPEX also in terms of OPEX, I think we are talking almost 90% of the OPEX, which is the renewable power as an input to hydrogen, and just the nominal 4% to 5% going into ammonia, and then the rest is the OSBL. So majorly driven by the hydrogen, osbl is off-site battery limits. Yeah, it's more the tankages, the cooling water, some of the other utilities as well, but hydrogen is the driver. Okay. So then let's move to ammonia.
Speaker 1:We. Hydrogen is the driver. Okay, so then let's move to ammonia. We've got the molecule. We know sort of the context of the hydrogen that leads into this. What different types of ammonia? Because the colors, basically, are just derived from the hydrogen, so that we don't have to discuss that anymore. What are the differentiating factors for ammonia? Of course it also you. Basically, you inherit the size from the hydrogen that you want to that you get as a feedstock. So are there different technologies that are fit for certain sizes and others are not, or what?
Speaker 2:are differentiatings. I think it's more a differentiator here. What we have in stamin carbon. I mean, if you look at Heer-Bosch, which is a principle for the ammonia technology, it's been there for more than 100 years. I mean it's a technology which has been very old.
Speaker 2:But what we do now and we also work along with project developers on that if it is a very isolated, small scale ammonia which is more driven by a kind of renewable asset which is not really big in size, we do offer a very high-pressure kind of loop, because Haber-Bosch allows us to play with the pressure and we kind of do this for more smaller scales, fill 500 metric ton capacities, we push the high pressure. This gives us a lot of advantage with respect to a very smaller footprint, modularized to an extent, and on the OPEC side we have a very low amount of catalyst which also drives a little bit on the downscaling of the overall renewable power what we need for the ammonia but on top of it a very low number of equipments which also drives lower capex. So it's a good mix of a low capex, low opex model for a small scale but also low capacity and for low capacity.
Speaker 2:Now as we go along to regions where you have much higher amount of renewable power, we come across capacities which are much higher than 500. So for that we have our own flavor, which is a concept where we have a medium pressure loop which is more conventional to that extent. It is around 150 bar and also driving economies in terms of lower capex because we of course minimize the number of equipments. But this can ramp up to a capacity as high as 3,000, 3,500 metric tons as you go along. So this could be a good mix where we look at the client's need and then kind of push either of these flavors, both these flavors, both these capacity flavors which I talked about, the high pressure and the medium pressure, well proven. We have running plants, also on gray which are running on these capacities, and then for the green, for the gray, for the blue, we kind of ensuit it with the upstream, which is the hydrogen production.
Speaker 2:It could be electrolyzers or the ATR.
Speaker 1:And then the hydrogen production is outside of, let's say, Stammy Carbon Scope, but it is part of the offering that NextCam Group can offer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean case to case. I mean, if it is a full ATR-driven blue ammonia, stammy can license it completely. Of course these sister companies are part of the group, but you can license the whole suit, right from hydrogen to ammonia to the whole end use. There are cases where we are now seeing that these plants are also integrated downstream. We have, as you know, stami is one of the world players in urea but also nitrates. We have more than 40 operational plants.
Speaker 1:Let's get to that step, then. Because we've talked about hydrogen, let's get to that step then. Because we've talked about hydrogen, yes, we've touched upon different high-pressure ammonia technology and medium-pressure ammonia technology with possible integration. So then, still, the molecule is the same, yes, With different capacities. So then, if you have ammonia, what are the use cases that ammonia is typically used for now, and do you see a change of this in the future?
Speaker 2:If you see, traditionally almost 190 million metric tons of ammonia is produced. Almost 85% of that goes to traditional urea and other fertilizers. Only 15% of that is traded. What we see now more and more is this size of ammonia will go big because there are new use cases coming up. What you see in Far East is ammonia is now being talked about being used in power production. Say, the Japanese power producing the coal-fired plants will use more ammonia. There is marine applications where the ships will be running on ammonia as well. That's also a prototype which is already coming into market. That will also take the ticket size more bigger.
Speaker 2:The traditional use cases of fertilizers that will also retrofitting existing plants with, say, green-blue or the low-carbon setup. These are some of the use cases and the last but not the least is the cracking back of ammonia to hydrogen, which could be for mobility. For example, you may tomorrow drive a hydrogen car. It's already happening. A lot of countries are having buses running on hydrogen, so this could be money on the table, I mean this size can go up Maybe.
Speaker 1:let me ask a stupid question. We can run ships on ammonia as a fuel. Why not run buses or cars on ammonia? But why crack it back to hydrogen?
Speaker 2:This is also a topic which is explored by a lot of these mobility companies. A lot of companies are looking at also engines being driven by ammonia. I think, step by step the big shipping giants presently, the likes of MERS and the other big giants they are already looking at prototypes which can replace the typical ammonia, the engines which are not driven by ammonia, to be converted to ammonia first, but they have a bigger life cycle. I think as we move along we will see a lot of these developments happening and there are already prototypes, which is a big confidence booster. So this will be a big industry which will take ammonia in a big way.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then let's say the fuel part of ammonia, then the fertilizer part In the beginning you mentioned also mentioned also death to diesel exhaust fluid as part of this. That's an integrated approach. If we move more towards fertilizers, what type of uses do you do?
Speaker 2:you see, then obviously it's nitrates, but other specific nitrates that you would integrate with you said already one the DEF, which is the diesel exhaust fuel, which is basically liquid urea, so it's already being used globally. People are now exploring more the greener part of DEF, how you produce this liquid urea which is diesel exhaust fuel. But what's the source? If it is coming through green ammonia, which is driving through renewable acid, it could be more called a green death. Or if it is more driven by low carbon, it could be low carbon death. I mean it depends on what upstream you have. So this is also one flavor.
Speaker 2:We see a lot in markets like US or the markets in Far East where they also use a lot of death. Not only that, but also UAN, urea, ammonium nitrate, nitric acid driving downstream to can fertilizers. We presently have a project which we are designing in France which is looking at the calcium ammonium nitrate. That's also one of the markets which is also driven largely with low-carbon calcium ammonium nitrate. It's a unique project called 40G where we are doing the calcium ammonium nitrate driven by nuclear power, as we talked initially about pink hydrogen.
Speaker 1:So these are different projects where also downstream integration of this ammonia is being talked about, Because there are many different types of fertilizers, many different types of nitrates. To what extent is there a, let's say, a business advantage, an integrational advantage? Because if you have the hydrogen technology, if you have the ammonia technology, obviously carbon is very big in urea technology but then also moving to nitrates, is very big in urea technology, but then also moving to nitrates. How do those intersections between all of those plants work and what are the advantages or disadvantages of connecting one plant to another.
Speaker 2:This is a good question because I think the overall economies also lie in integration. For example, if you see, today an ammonia is a net producer of steam but a urea downstream is a net consumer of steam. If you look at nitric acid, it's a net exporter of steam. And this whole complex, if you see it, could be integrated in such a way that if you have the traditional green ammonia, which produces electrolyzerssis but also oxygen, yes.
Speaker 2:It could be integrated downstream with the nitric acid, because oxygen could be a good enabler for the absorption in the nitric acid. We also have steam which is produced in ammonia, which could be also used for downstream products like ammonium nitrate, calcium ammonium nitrate. So what you see here is a complete integration and we are actually demonstrating this in some projects right now, and this integration brings down the capital cost but also big ticket investments Like, for example, if you are connected, the ammonia is going directly to downstream products. You do need an intermediate cryogenic storage. These are big CapEx items, side-fabricated, big in cost. We kind of completely strike off these big capital costs, provides a lot of synergies for the cost and brings down the levelized cost, which is one of the targets for the developers.
Speaker 1:So, then, optimizing the integration makes it easier for those, let's say, low carbon or green projects to take off to fly. So it also has an environmental benefit if this becomes easier to integrate.
Speaker 2:It's a dual focus, it's addressing two parts. Now, for example, if you look at Europe today, we are devoid of gas. We also are looking at how to look at some of the fertilizers which can fuel the local agricultural economy, and this is driving both. I mean we can also look at ammonia as ammonia, but also utilizing, say, a nuclear power which is quite rapidly available in France, to make low-carbon fertilizers which can be used locally by the majority of the countries in Western Europe.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then maybe the last question. You said this is a developing thing. We are integrating this at the moment, but you also mentioned we've got example, project business cases, developments. How strong are references in these type of integrations?
Speaker 2:I think if you look at every block, if you talk about hydrogen as a block, we have our own reference positions. I mean, we talk about autothermal reforming. It's well proven.
Speaker 2:It's one of the major high pressure auto thermal reforming patents we have with our sister group, gas Contact SMR, more than 75, 80 plants built by one of our sister company, kt. When you slowly move towards ammonia, both the flavors I mentioned, both the concepts on the high pressure, we have running plants both on grey. We are now building for green, for medium pressure, more than 45 odd running plants on grey. So if you look at piece by piece, this is all proven, commercially proven, which can be demonstrated, say to a bankable customer who is also looking at kind of debt funding it. So commercially proven, okay.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting. I think that gives a nice overview of the, let's say, the ammonia value chain. That's also why we said well, let's do a podcast from feed to food. I hope your daughter now understands the colors a bit better. I will forward this podcast also to my mother and see what she thinks of this. All right, unless you have anything to add that we missed, deepak.
Speaker 2:No, I think we are in a world where a lot of exciting things are happening right now, and it's not only ammonia. The whole hydrogen derivative to ammonia, to the fertilizers, is changing the world, I would say, and also countries, economies are looking at self-sufficiencies now in this uncentered world, what we're talking about, but it's interesting times.
Speaker 1:Interesting times and interesting podcast. Thank you for your insights, deepak, and also thank you to our listeners. I hope you tune in to STAMI Talks next time as well, thank you. Thank you for your insights, deepak, and also thank you to our listeners. I hope you tune in to Stammy Talks next time as well, thank you. Thank you, mark, thanks.