Stamitalks Podcast
We at Stamicarbon are pioneers in the licensing and design of fertilizer technology with more than 77 years of experience.
Here we share the latest technology insights into urea, green ammonia, fertilizer sustainability, and digital trends for fertilizer plants, and we also discuss the role the fertilizer industry can play in solving global challenges.
Happy to share our knowledge with you.
Stamitalks Podcast
Decarbonizing the steel industry - Initiate project
Stamicarbon engineers share insights into the groundbreaking Initiate project, where carbon-rich steel mill off-gas is transformed into ammonia—a valuable feedstock for fertilizer production. They discuss the process and the engineering challenges they overcame while designing this innovative plant from scratch.
Discover how this EU-funded pilot project, part of the Horizon 2020 initiative, is paving the way for sustainable solutions in the steel industry.
All right, welcome everybody to a new episode of Stamie Talks, the podcast, where we talk about fertilizer technology. Today we have two guests Rolf Posma Welcome, rolf. Thank you, mark and Bas Merten Bas also welcome. Toolf. Thank you, mark and Bas Merten Bas, also welcome to you. Thank you, and we're going to talk about the Initiate project, but before we do so, I think it's a good thing that you introduce yourself. So, rolf, can you tell a bit more about your background, how you ended up at Stamicarbon and what your sort of expertise?
Speaker 2:is so. My name is Rolf Postma. I now work for three years at Stamicarbon. Before that I did a PhD at the University of Twente looking into industrial catalysis and then, upon joining Stamicarbon, I directly joined the Green Ammonia team, which is that time we were setting up. Actually, my first project that I started working on already in the first week was Initiate. So the second week that I was here was a progress meeting that we held at the site of the pilot plant in Lulea. So second week of working here already business trip to the north of Sweden. So it was a very nice way of entering the company.
Speaker 1:Okay, great, and Bas, of course, you're also working on the Initiate project. What's your background?
Speaker 3:So thank you, mark. My name is Bas Meerten. I am a mechanical engineer working for Stamikaven's Green Ammonia Technology, I think the same as Rolf. I started also with when entering the company. I started with the Initiate project. Entering the company, I started with the Initiate project More on that later but I started off as a machinist in the workshop operating lathes and milling machines. That study was called Research Instrument Maker and it's about precision engineering. So at the sizes of your watch, the inner workings of your watch. And now at Stamikaba we work with the complete opposite side of the technology. Yeah, exactly, because now we are doing industrial scale equipment and all these things. But this Initiate project that is again a little bit more in the realm of. Yeah, it's a smaller converter, of course it's still on an industrial scale.
Speaker 1:But maybe to start off with, because I think some of our audience will know what Initiate is, but I think most will not. So basically the general question what is the Initiate project? Is this just a commercial project or is it something completely different? Can you explain a bit about that?
Speaker 2:So the Initiate project? It's a project under the scope of Horizon 2020. So it's a EU-funded project for basically generating pilot plans for newer technologies that will help the process industry within Europe to decarbonize and move forward to a more sustainable future. So, in that regards the INITIATE project, it looks at decarbonizing the steel industry. As you all know, for making steel you need to have a lot of cokes that you use to reduce your iron ore to iron, and the off-gases still contain reducible gases like carbon monoxide, hydrogen, etc. And this is, of course, a perfect feedstock for having chemical synthesis, like making ammonia, like making urea.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's basically turning the often furnace gas into fertilizer. Is that a good way of describing it? High level.
Speaker 2:In a high level. That's indeed a good way of describing it. High level In a high level. That's indeed a good way of describing it.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then this sounds like a very simple idea. Just do it. Why is this a project? What's the challenge? Why is it a subsidized project?
Speaker 2:So there's basically two parts that come into this.
Speaker 2:For the upfront side, where we need to tune the gas, where we need to really make the synthesis gas into something that's useful for making ammonia, there the Dutch Research Institute TNO comes in.
Speaker 2:They developed a new technology called CWACS sorption enhanced water gas shift where basically you take the off gases from the steel mill and then in a reactor where you've got the water-gas shift reaction to make hydrogen from carbon monoxide as well as absorption of CO2 in the same vessel to drive the equilibrium to full extent.
Speaker 2:Okay. And that way generating a stream of pure hydrogen and nitrogen perfect for synthesizing ammonia, stream of pure hydrogen and nitrogen perfect for synthesizing ammonia and a stream of pure co2 that can be utilized for urea production downstream okay. But then we come to the ammonia plant and since the steel mill will not have a continuous flow of the same quality gas, it will fluctuate depending on what steel you're making, how much steel steel you're making. So your flow rate of gas from the steel mill will fluctuate quite significantly, as well as the composition, how much reducible gas in there, how much inert is in there, et cetera. And then we are, on purpose, trying to test the ammonia synthesis loop to see how it can deal with these fluctuations in terms of makeup, gas flow rate, composition, et cetera.
Speaker 1:So, on one hand, it's purifying the off-gas to make it usable and to split it into different feeds actually, is it nitrogen and hydrogen, as an example and, on the other hand, dealing with fluctuations both in volume but also in composition? Correct, yes, and it's always helpful to know what we're talking about. That's a good idea. Correct, yes, sir, and it's always helpful to know what we're talking about. That's a good idea. Okay, so I think those are the two, or at least those are the high level innovations. Can you dive a bit deeper into? Because it's also like ESMC square sounds very easy, but coming up with it takes Einstein a few years to cover that. This also sounds very easy and logical. Why isn't it? Why? Because you started three years ago. You said so. The project is going on for about that time, correct? How does this work? Because I'm assuming it's complicated. You also already mentioned the Deutsch Research Institute, tno. Are there more collaborations, parties involved? How does this? What's the challenge?
Speaker 2:So there's many parties involved in the total consortium when it comes to catalyst manufacturing, steel mills that are involved, producers of the sorbent that is used within the COX. We're also collaborating with our sister company, nextcam. It's actually the ammonia synthesis loop. It's a collaboration within MITRE where we are working together with Nextcam to develop the whole synthesis loop, which posed two main challenges. One is the reduction in capacity, because normally our ammonia plants they go from about 50 metric tons per day upwards, but this one is operating at 2.7 metric tons per day.
Speaker 2:We still wanted to keep the synthesis loop as close to our normal concept as possible to really take the learnings from what we see within this pilot and be able to translate that properly to our bigger concept Okay. But then also to design in this flexibility which will then go from all the way 10% capacity to 110% capacity, to properly put it in in a way that would maintain a properly operating process but also not stress too much. On a mechanical point of view the whole synthesis loop is quite challenging, but that also translates very nicely into the green ammonia as we're working on, because of course with green ammonia you see exactly the same type of intermittency If the sun doesn't shine, if the wind doesn't blow, you cannot run at full capacity. So in that way this is a very nice translation also to how we want to use our stamy green ammonia in also a more intermittent way and to in that way prove it in an operational pilot plant.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's dealing with intermittency, as a, let's say, the stamy green ammonia concept, intermittency on the volume, on the timing as well, probably also I think I'm assuming a bit on feet and pressures, all that stuff. It's more capable of dealing with that, exactly, yeah, okay. So then, bas, I'm assuming that that also has an impact on how you design something mechanically, absolutely. Yeah. So what's the challenge there? I'm not that much into mechanics, so please enlighten me.
Speaker 3:So, yes, the stresses on the mechanical design increase. Of course, when you have fluctuations. Fatigue now plays a role, cycling fatigue, which means that you have to resort to different materials for construction. You can, of course, fix a lot with how you operate the plant, so that is why we, as mechanicals, we are in very close contact with our process counterparts. But also you have different ways of designing the vessel. That is, reducing the amount of, let's say, stresses, which then can be. You can mitigate the amount of stresses by the design.
Speaker 3:So what we did is, indeed, we started off with well, we started off with nothing. That was the beauty of this project, actually, is that we really started with a blank sheet of paper. Then we try to make a containment for this process, which is then the reactor. We started off with a blank sheet of paper. We made the first sketches. That was when I joined Stamikarbon as well. Of course, it is a multidisciplinary effort in the company. There are lots of different parties involved in there. Course, it is a multidisciplinary effort in the company. There are lots of different parties involved in there. So, okay, we start as a mechanical engineers. We start with the concept, we start with the design. We have lots of iteration with the process team, but also with process control. Then we go for verification, because in Stamik-Carbon the ammonia technology is reasonably new. So you will find a lot of verification during the development stage, where we try to consult with our seniors as much as possible. Principal engineers also are involved heavily. But that's not all. That is just on the mechanical side.
Speaker 3:So you have a design which is kind of yeah, it's in a concept phase, but with that design you also go to, for example, inspections, and inspections can also advise us on how the equipment will be expected later on. So that has influences on the way we design the vessel. And I think that's also the beauty of what we are doing here is that we have loads of different disciplines that all have the same goal, so they think in the same way, but from a complete different point of view, and not just inspections. I mean, we also talk with, for example, together with Rolf, we have lots of discussions with the intellectual property team, where they, of course because everything that we design is new, it's based on ammonia technology, but it has a lot of new touches to it based on ammonia technology, but it has a lot of new touches to it so that all has to go to, of course, intellectual property.
Speaker 3:We talk with project development, we speak with sales, we speak with project management, and that's just internally, in order to come up with a product, with an actual, tangible product which can be manufactured. Now to come back to the mechanical engineers Also within the mechanical engineers, we have people who have more. How do you say it? They are I can't find the word. So within the mechanicals, we have people who are specialized in, for example, the coding, the standards, or in piping, in welding possibilities, manufacturing specialists. So I try to find all of these people to come together and give their input on the design in order to come up with the best possible thing that we can.
Speaker 3:If that is done so internally, okay, it will never be completely done yet it's always new iteration. It's always new iteration, yeah, always new insights. If a project lasts for years like this, you will you learn more in those years. We are busy with a lot of different stuff at the same time with a lot of different stuff. That means that from every project innovation that you're doing, you learn new stuff. You also try to adapt that on running projects. Of course, if you can make a design better, why not? What I also really like is that, after we internally are aligned on the designer, we think this is the best possible way. On a theoretical level, you speak to the manufacturer. So we have a very close collaboration with the manufacturer, where we again try to see what is it that well, we will change the design again according to the manufacturer's capabilities, they might come up and we also try to get that discussion going with them. Hey, how can we do this better? What is your experience in making this part? Is this possible?
Speaker 3:That's a really iterative process to keep improving Absolutely because we can design beautiful things but it has to be manufacturable as well and, as I just said in my introduction, I also studied as a machinist, so I have an idea, but with what the current capabilities are of all manufacturers, it is always different. So I love that we, until the very end of the project, let's say during the final inspection, we still have that possibility because we are the designers of the vessel as well to make adaptations so that the handling, maintainability and inspectability of the devices is approved.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it's designed with, let's say, the full life cycle of the devices is approved. Okay, so it's really designed with, let's say, the full lifecycle of the equipment in mind, absolutely, absolutely. That's nice, okay, so then the equipment at some point will be taken into operation, has been shipped to Sweden to be fitted to the steel mill. So you already described, I think, relatively high level, the process of how this all works. How did you experience this collaboration? Is this the same? Because I think this is mostly internal collaboration that Bas describes also with the manufacturer externally, but you've mentioned a lot of different catalyst providers. You've mentioned TNO, the steel mill, of course. How does that work, let's say the collaboration between so many different parties, I think under, I'm guessing, supervision from the EU?
Speaker 2:The leader of the project is actually TNO, so TNO has got the full scope and then they are dividing that over the different parties that are involved, of which we are also a part.
Speaker 2:But there's many progress meetings. About every half a year, sometimes every quarter of a year, we've got a progress meeting with the whole consortium where everyone comes together. Of course, when it came to the development of the converter, initially there was quite some back and forth with the catalyst vendor, because they know their catalyst by heart. They know the activity, they know the productivity, they know in what temperature ranges, et cetera, it should be to operate optimally. So there was a lot of back and forth to see how that would work. That also led to quite some back and forth with the mechanical team, because the initial design that we came up with was not manufacturable. We had scaled it down a little bit too far and then we went to our mechanical colleagues and we said can you make this? And they said, no, that's too small, we cannot do it. I did not want to mention that boo-boo.
Speaker 2:So in the end we needed to increase it a little bit. But then it becomes, of course, tricky if you make the reactor bigger than you actually want to have it at that capacity to still make it operate well, in sort of a permanent turn down and also, like I said, still being able to go down to this 10%, as we To a 10%.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's really really low, so it's a 10% turn down ratio, is that correct? Correct. So to put oh, that's really really low, so it's a 10% turn down ratio, is that the correct?
Speaker 2:term to use. So to put all of that properly, in it there was quite a lot of back and forth with the Catalyst vendor, with the mechanical team, to really come to an optimal solution. Then, of course, to really develop the synthesis loop, we worked together a lot with our colleagues at NextCam. So it was a lot of development going back and forth, development of the PFD, of the P&IDs, then having the HACCP. So, looking at this system, because it needs to be in operation in Sweden, it's quite close to as opposed to safety study, right? Yes, exactly as opposed to safety study, because it's quite close to a neighborhood in Sweden. So we don't want anything bad to happen with the plant that might affect the people that actually live there. So it was a very rigorous safety study done also together with NextGam. And of course we've got collaboration with TNO because they will be in charge of the gas that will come into the ammonia plant.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So if we want that to be maintained within certain limits when it comes to poisons for the catalyst etc. Then we need to collaborate with them. So there's really at every point you need to have all the parties involved to in the end, come to not only a workable solution, but also as close to the optimal solution as you can get, because the better this pilot plant runs, the more learnings we can take from it, the more we can go into future plants, either with this concept for decarbonizing the steel mill or for the green ammonia. So really put a lot of effort to collaborate with everyone as much as possible to get the best out of it.
Speaker 1:All the interfaces aligned as best as possible. So I'm still a bit puzzled, because you said earlier you mentioned the 2.7 metric tons per day. Correct, but that's sort of the max capacity and then sort of 10% is 270 kilotons per day.
Speaker 2:Kilograms per day Kilograms, okay.
Speaker 1:Not even kilograms. You have a kiloton.
Speaker 2:It's a very, very small capacity, but this is really just a pilot plan just to demonstrate that it works. Yeah, because, of course, if you want to prove this new concept, then you directly build a world-scale plant and in the end, we're convinced that it will work. Of course, but if you build a world-scale plant and it doesn't work like you expect it to work, you invested a lot and you get very little back for it. So this is a pilot plan to really prove the concept. You invest a lot and you get very little back for it. So this is a pilot plan to really prove the concept. And then the idea is to then move forward to more industrially applicable type of scales.
Speaker 1:Okay, and then what size are you talking about?
Speaker 2:So we're already now, together with partners, looking at having the first of a kind plant, and for this one we're looking at a capacity of about 200 tons per day of urea, which if you look at the world scale plants, is still relatively small. But it's already in the realm that it becomes economically interesting, especially if you keep in mind that these gases from the steel mill they're basically waste gases. So anything you can do with that to add value to it is all pure profit in that regard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but then I think also the environment is a big winner here, right? Because you don't have any off-gases going into the atmosphere.
Speaker 2:Definitely. So basically, of course, co2 is still involved. There is still urea and urea, per definition, has CO2. Yeah, but since we're basically doubly utilizing this carbon, you're actually halving your carbon footprint. So you use your carbon for the steel mill and then later on you use that same carbon for making your urea, so it's double usage to in that way, significantly reduce a very difficult to abate sector. Because for making steel you will always need carbon, because there's ideas of direct reduction, using hydrogen, using even ammonia to make steel. But to make steel you still need to get that carbon in the metal and for that you will need cokes. So this will be very difficult to abate, but at least like this we can reduce the overall carbon footprint.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's a very interesting project. So you've already touched upon this a bit. So it's from the 2.7 megatons per day to the 2.7 tons of ammonia per day, scaling up to 200 tons of urea per day, correct? So then the business case obviously improved, because I'm guessing that of course it is a subsidized project with a reason because this doesn't pan out, correct? But now, with those bigger skills, the business case does become suitable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then still, the capacity of this, about 200 tons per day urea that we're looking at is not the final capacity because it's still not taking the full stream from the steel mill. Okay, it can still go to higher capacities and then it really goes into the higher hundreds of tons per day, even up to a thousand tons per day, okay, then you really start making significant quantities and it really becomes economically viable. Maybe also an interesting note to put. So within the Initiate project, we're actually not making urea. We stop at ammonia, okay, but then, due to the small capacity, we're actually not making pure ammonia, but we're making aqua ammonia.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it will be about. I've never heard of aqua ammonia. What's aqua ammonia?
Speaker 2:So it's basically what you can also buy at any convenience store. So it's basically a solution of ammonia in water, ah, okay, sort of diluted, exactly. So at home you would use it as a cleaning product, but in industry it's used as a de-NOx agent. Okay, so this will be within Lulea, within Sweden. It will be supplied to a local energy company that will use this aqua ammonia to de-NOx the off-gases that they have from their energy production.
Speaker 1:Okay, so further emission reductions, Exactly, exactly. Oh nice, that's a nice way. So I know quite a lot about how many urea plants there are globally, but how many steel mills are we talking about? If this project, of course, it's going to work and it's going to be a success and we're going to scale this up, how long do you need to I don't know to transform all steel mills?
Speaker 2:in the world. That will take quite a significant amount of time, I would say Two months, I mean. Even within Europe, we are Cape and then make it happen.
Speaker 2:Exactly. Of course, if they want to get this concept from us, we're happy to supply it within two months. No joke, all jokes aside. All jokes aside, no, but if you already look in Europe, we've got, I think, about 20 steel mills that can benefit from this reduction, especially if you see the ETS coming in, you see Seabound coming in, et cetera. Exactly. And then if you look worldwide, I would not even dare to venture how many steel mills there are in total, but it will run into the hundreds likely. If we can decarbonize all of them with this concept, then it will be a huge step towards sustainability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so and then time ago because the initial project is the first of a kind takes a lot of time to develop all this Now we've been going for about three years. How long would it take? Let's fast forward whatever. Five years, that is. We've had the first and second and third of its kind. This is becoming a more regular process. How long does it take? If then I come to you say I have a steel mill, I want to make this more sustainable, I want to use this concept and I want to take the off gas and make urea out of this, is this a project for, let's say, two or three years, including the build of the whole plant site, or is that sort of the timeframe that we're talking about?
Speaker 2:I think we can look at it basically the same as having a regular fertilizer plant. So then your two, three years. I think that's indeed a fair guess. It all depends on when you get your finance, where you get your subsidies et cetera to build it and then, from starting the engineering all the way up to building the plant, commissioning et cetera, I would say that in the two, three years, if everything runs well, it's a very good guess.
Speaker 1:So all the European targets for 2030 can still be in scope. If they so, we're right on time, I think, with the technology development to support the Paris 2015 agreement. Exactly, All right. Well, that's great to hear. I'm just checking. We've talked about a lot of different things, of course what the Initiate project is, what the innovations are in terms of the C-VAC from TNO, but also in dealing with the intermittency of the flue gas and the volumes and the turn-down ratio. We've talked about collaborations with different parties. Also internally, Is there anything? And the business case, of course.
Speaker 3:No, I think on the mechanical side, we are very pleased that we again are testing some new materials from Alema. So in the past we have had a great partnership with Alema on special steels, so we use this project also to test out a few new materials of them. Okay, we expect, of course, good results. We also expect that we can use these materials in our bigger scale capacities. So because, especially if you talk about the intermittency and as I said before, you can tune the design in such a way that it deals a little bit better with the fluctuations. But the material choice is also a big influence on Well, the material choice is also important in this consideration. So I think if we fine-tune these things, we get the results of this project where we really stress this particular equipment. That is very beneficial for every type of innovation that we are also still doing on the side of materials design opening new paths to getting more sustainable because we are doing new stuff.
Speaker 3:It is maybe old technology, but if we are talking about green, it's going to be. Yeah, how do you say it? Also, you have new innovations. You need new innovations to cope with the green aspect of the technology.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can imagine. All right, that's very interesting. So I think that's all. I hope you still want to add some new perspective.
Speaker 2:So it's indeed a very, very nice project to work with so many different companies, different people, to really make this transition to a more sustainable future reality. And if you really see everyone coming together to make this transition to a more sustainable future reality, and then if you really see everyone coming together to make this a reality, it's really beautiful to see.
Speaker 3:Especially, the collaboration is nice, Especially that I really like that Within the company with our sister company that was also. I think I have even paved the way towards more collaboration in the future. We are now finding out that this is really a thing. We can do this, so it was beneficial for a lot of different.
Speaker 1:Okay, thank you both for explaining the Initiate project. It's very interesting to hear and I'm pretty sure we will keep track of this project also, of course, in our external marketing outings from Stamikarbon, but also for Initiate projects, which has its own channel on LinkedIn, by the way. So whoever wants to follow this project more closely is also welcome to check that channel out. For now, thank you Rolf, thank you Bas, for attending this podcast and, of course, also a big thanks to our listeners for tuning in to Stammy Talks, and we hope to have you again on air next time. Thank you, thanks, mark, thanks.